assignment with adi cornish. >> listen wherever you get your podcasts closed captioning brought to you by meso our firm only represents mesothelioma victims and their families. >> if you or a loved one has been diagnosed with mesothelioma collis. now good evening. >> welcome to our continuing special products on coverage and the trump new york hush money trial. dave, 14 so i'm prosecutors focused or a current bookkeeper& a former white house staffer on how closely their boss watched every dollar, including far smaller sums in his and michael cohen also de to of

cross-examination for stormy daniels, perhaps at the defendant's behest whether or not it helped his case. and after the jury left to defense motions, one, to modify the gag order for that, mr. trump is under to allow him to talk about stormy daniels the other asking for a mistrial for the second time this week judge, juan merchan denying the gag order motion saying and i quote, your clients track record speaks for itself. he also denied the mistrial motion, which the defense had based on what it claimed was prejudicial testimony by stormy daniels about sex with mr. trump. the judge said the defense brought it on themselves by denying a sexual encounter or had taken place meaning he said that the jury needed to be able to determine whether to believe her or the defense he also sculpted the defense for not objecting to items they were now citing as grounds for a mistrial. prosecutors meantime, said they will not be calling the other woman who is alleging an affair with the former president former playboy model karen mcdougal, who silence. he also secured prior to the 2016

election. afterwards, he had this to say i don't think we have to do any excellent explaining. i'm not allowed to anyway, because this judge is corrupt music corrupt judge this judge, what he did or what tastes ruling was is a disgrace everybody. so what happened today? he's a corrupt judge that is totally conflicted as for the woman he tried and failed to get his gag order lifted for stormy daniels. >> she tweeted this about an hour ago, quoting now, real men respond to testimony by being sworn in and taking the stand in court. >> oh, wait. >> never mind. joining us now, new york defense attorney arthur aidala, who is in court today, also bestselling author and former federal prosecutors, every toobin, cnn primetime anchors, abby phillip and kaitlan collins, also someone who's known judge merchan for more than 15 years, former new york judge agilent khan visor, and cnn kara scannell has been covering this case from the beginning. want to talk to the two people who are even court karen, what did you what was it like i mean, at the end when

the judge was going back and forth or trump's attorneys over these motions, it got heated separate and apart from the testimony today, and that was in part because trump's team was arguing for a mistrial the second time this week that they've done that and saying that this was unfair testimony was prejudicial. >> they're saying stormy daniels changed her story because some of her testimony intimated that there was a power dynamic at play and a height differential and she wasn't sure she could leave. but they said that that was it's unfair to the jury because at the time in 2016, she was saying that this was consensual and that is what trump was trying to stop if you believe the prosecution and not these additional details, but the judge said that this was their own making. he'd said the other day, he was surprised at trump's attorneys didn't object more than that, he sustained the first objection. he abducted tiktok themselves. but today he went even further and he said, why on his talking about trump's attorney, why on earth she wouldn't object to the mention of a condom. i don't understand. so he was saying that they let far too much detail come in themselves

before they objected. and he was saying that in fact, because they denied that this affair ever happen, that the jury was fair for the jury to hear the detail, to draw their own conclusion about whether they believed her not. >> okay. here's what i really want to know we were outside the court reading. >> your missives and others are reporters inside the court it was very hard for us on the outside. we've talked about this on the heir to see to get a sense of how was the jury responding to this tends cross-examination of stormy daniels certainly daniel's at times seemed more relaxed perhaps than she had been in her actual testimony the previous day, although it's hard to tell just from text messaging because but she seemed to be laughing more and i'm wondering, i want to get your taken older than earth because you were also there. what what was it like inside the courtroom well, how was the jury responding i mean, out of the gates, susan nechele, just with pounding her with questions and daniels was responding so quickly that twice the judge had to both

tell them stop. >> you're talking over each other. the courtroom border can't take this down. so it was very combative, but daniels was holding her ground she would she was making some jokes. she made a joke about being pressed on how she's profited from this. and she said, will not unlike mr. trump over there, who's profited from his indictments this jury is very poker face. i have not seen any reaction from them reacting to testimony. they've just taken it all straight. they take notes, a number of flip through their notepad. but i have not seen any reaction. the only reaction i saw from a juror today was when a different witness had become emotional, they lifted up a box of tissues and handed to the security officer who handed it to the witness, but otherwise i've not seen any reaction. they just follow it like a tennis match. >> lawyer witness. >> lawyer witness, going back and forth, are there i would well, just picking up on the jury, being in the courtroom for the first time, i always one of the things i gauge of how serious sure. >> is taking this probably most

important thing they do civic duty was is how they dress. do they come in like slaad, like they don't care or they dressing like they're going somewhere that matters. i'm not saying you have dressing, you going to a wedding, but and they they they look like a professional jury and yes. what karatay like, they're just susan stormy. susan stormy. they will go back and forth let me just put my cards on the table. i went there for one reason today. i went there as a student susan nechele has a reputation in the legal community of being a spectacular lawyer. and i went there to learn from her and i did and what i learned was it just solidified when i knew there is no substitute for preparation. so all stormy's quick answers back, susan had a retort right back at you. oh, really? well, let's go let's talk about what you said to anderson cooper. oh, really, let's look, let's look at what you wrote in your own book. so she had it off the top of her head and then she's able you lose so much technology, then

she's able to call up on the big screens exactly what she wanted to see the whole thing with the st. candle the saint of indictments she called a picture and she made it very clear that this was number one about money. you wanted to make money. >> and i and she said, i didn't get paid for the anderson cooper interview. >> and then susan calmly says, but how much money did you make after the anderson cooper interview? you made $800,000 on a book advanced you may $200,000 on a television show. you got the hundred and $30,000. so you made millions? no, i didn't make millions. that's only 1 million a little bit more than 1 million. so i didn't make millions. so it was obvious the whole thing about money was off base. >> but overall, em, sin kinda held her own. >> i mean, pardon the pun, but she she weathered the storm susan nechele, broader storm, and i even say like her body language, like towards the end, she was kinda firm. >> i thought kara jokes kind of

felt flat. she tried to make like three or four jokes, don't really laugh the biggest part that i was like are hot let's susan said, susan nechele, the defense attorney said, so you've written the scripts for is it 150 pornography movies? and she gets all proud. stormy say yes, and i think she said i directed in them and she like so you know, how to write imaginary sexual encounters, don't you? and isn't that what happened here? no. this was real& if i was writing about it, i would have written a better story than this one, but it just goes to her credibility. but overall, like we've been saying she's not a material witness, she's doesn't the end. susan says, do you know something like you know, how he keeps his checks? it keeps us checkbooks, you know, how the books and records and cadden? >> no, no, no, no, no. geoff. >> it's won. just want to say because it's interesting that you say, you're going to see susan. she has this reputation as this it's tough defense attorney. she certainly was tough in the cross-examination of stormy daniels on tuesday.

it's interesting how they ended today though, because the judge took a serious amount of time is qarrah is noting there when he was denying their motion for a mistrial to really focus on susan nechele is particularly, he said her name multiple times and trump was kinda seated in back in his chair like this with this kind of scowl on his face listening to the judge really condemn trump's team for how should they carry that out? susan nicholas was the first attorney in that chair. stormy daniels was initially on the witness stand, and when they were getting into those graphic details, which the prosecutor has made clear today, they oh, back on a lot of what was in their initial interview with stormy daniels, that's why they important denied this motion for a mistrial. the judge but the judge's decision here was so thoughtful that he said yesterday, and there was no court. he went into his chambers and he reviewed the testimony from tuesday. he went over it and he looked at the past evidence of her interviews and what she had said previously said her accounts, not all that different. she didn't come in here and say things that are all that different and he said what

qarrah was noting, which is essentially that you guys made this a decision for the jury because you came out in your opening statement and questioned her credibility. so the prosecution had to resign very important point about about her consistency, but limit let me just read what the judge said. he said about sermon down his version of events code. i disagree with your narrative that there's any new account here? disagree that there's any change in story. what's happened is people have gone into more detail than they originally planned, right? >> and i felt the big difference between yesterday's cross-examination and today was that yesterday? >> susan nechele is very much focused on stormy's hatred of trump and her financial motives. today, she went into a new area which was trying to prove that the description of the sexual encounter was different in that i think was a mistake. i think that's that's a waste of time. it allowed stormy to talk about it. again, i think the judge is right. i don't think there were any

major inconsistencies and that struck me as an example of one of client maintenance that this was because trump wanted to dispute the weather, the sex took place even though in my opinion, maybe you disagree, maybe you all disagree. that's just not a worthwhile area you may be right about client maintenance, but one of the things anderson that also stood out with a total silly answer from stormy. >> susan says, you testified here today that you guys never ate anything. you ordered dinner with they're never came up. that's true. well, let me read from i believe it was your book well, you said we came up and we had dinner together. so in your own book, you're saying you had dinner and now you're saying you never eight and story goes, well where i come from saying you had dinner with someone doesn't have anything to do with food. it just means that the time of day you dinner time yes. >> actually example of who cares.

>> i mean, your defense attorney, you got to hit every little but there were a couple of exchanges like that that did kind of illicit why are we even talking about this? i mean, i think generally when a lot of the make america horny tour right? >> i don't want to see if that everyone is talking about almost misses the point. because if there are discrepancies between what the witness said in the past off the stand, as opposed to what she said here. that is this never a grounds for a mistrial that is grounds for cross-examination. that's the purpose of cross-examination. so to bass an argument on a mistrial that somehow the story has changed to me, makes absolutely no sense at all in fairly, i don't think that was the argument. i think the argument was we should have a mistrial because it was two inflammatory to improper it is i think they are good enough lawyers to know that cross-examination allegedly inconsistent stories isn't the quote from todd blanche, at least what i read was this is not the story she told us and we were not prepared for that

something along those lines, which sounded extremely as you said, something that a lawyer would never would never credit because that's the whole point of cross examination. >> keep bringing it back to this is the case about documents. why are we getting into such detail about sex? and the judge's saying because you open saying that that this never happened and that's why the prosecution asked extremely because if the point is it never happened, then stormy daniels is a liar& of stormy daniels is a liar. the people then have a responsibility to to pull out as much detail as possible. so this so the jury can decide to credit that's what the judge that's what the judge essentially said. felt like his demeanor from tuesday to today about the usefulness of stormy's testimony and the detail really shifted. he seemed to really settle into the idea that it was actually more necessary than not. i also don't think that any of the inconsistencies even speak to the most important part, which is if they want to claim the sex didn't happen, none of those details, whether it's

the dinner or anything else really go to that. so i'm not sure that they really scored any points on that front except to seem like perhaps they were nitpicking on small things that really had nothing to do. >> did it seem in the courtroom? i mean, just it's reading it from outside. it seemed like they were kind of shaming stormy daniels in some of the cross-examination for what she does for a living, de did it did it feel like that in the courtroom? >> you do. it's funny. is that i talked to her two colleagues who are in the courtroom with me learned of in jeremy herb and none of us took it as shaming, which is what some people i think on the outside took it as it seemed more that she was challenging her on why would any of this be surprising to you, you're a professional and not that you have been with so many different people. and stormy daniels reaction and also did not seem defensive in that respect. she was correcting her on the difference in it, but not seeming defensive about being asked that question was about

the fainting. >> i mean, that's where susan i agree with you but that's what susan went after a little bit. >> so sushi goes how many movies have you been in? >> like 200 and you're absolutely naked, right? and you're having sex in front of all these people, right? but now you come out of a bathroom and there's a 60 year-old man and boxer shorts and a t-shirt and for that reason, you almost fainted and say, well, i didn't think it was just a little bit obvious. >> there's a difference between acting in a movie and something in your personal regular movie. geoff get denier yeah, i don't know how a jury is going to react to that, but but it doesn't seem to meet implausible that she would have a different reaction blacks out well, she did she didn't fly. she said she almost black. >> i do think there was not a great look for susan nechele us to be schooled by stormy about what pornography actually is when stormy had to say it's real, it's not something that she makes up in a screenplay, by the way, is a film buff. >> i love a gang. good, didn't reference i don't have to.

>> the only one in this panel really seen it multiple times, judge, count visor. thank you very much. appreciate it up. next details from the full trial transcript, which just came out, cnn's john berman joins us for that. and later, which from biographer maggie haberman from it. and york times reporter maggie haberman made of her day in court or take on how the former president handled hearing more unflattering comments from stormy daniels and the fact they were listed by his defense in steam, and how a jury consultant thinks all of this lando maturers tonight did i read this? >> did i get it? >> where are my keys? >> memory and thinking issues keep piling up it may be due to a buildup of amyloid plaques in the brain visit more than normal aging.com when i was

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dot com in britt for certain how we'd really happy with jesse l. martin, sunday's at nine on cnn stormy daniels, who was cross-examined today on her account of her sexual encounter within citizen trump, which he and his defense team deny before bringing john berman with details from the trial transcript years what she's told me when i spoke with over cbs does 60 minutes i excuse myself when i went to the restroom you know, i was in there for a little bit and came out and he was sitting on the edge of the bad when i walked out perched and when you saw that, what went through your mind i realize exactly what i'd gotten myself into and i was like here we go.

>> and i just felt like it was sort of i had it coming for making a bad decision for going to someone's room alone and i just heard the voice of matter. well, you put yourself in a bad situation and bad things happen. so you deserve this and you had sex with him? yes you were 27, he was 60. >> were you physically attracted to him? >> no not at all. >> no did you want to have sex with him no but i didn't i didn't say no. i'm not a victim. i'm not. >> it was entirely consensual. oh, yes. >> yes. >> and joining us to cnn, senior legal analyst, elie honig and john berman, jonny, we're looking at the transcripts a lot about the store sparring with stormy daniels. well, get arthur talked about this specific moment where susan nechele less is going after stormy daniels for being involved in the porn industry. >> and she says, susan nechele, you have a lot of experience in making phony stories about sex appear to be real, right? daniel says, wow, i'm, there's laughter. she says, that's not

how i would put it. the sex and the film's it's very much real, just like what happened to me in the room than necklace says. all right. but you're making fictionalized stories about sex. you write those stories, daniel says, no, the sex is real real the character names might be different, but the sex is very real. that a little bit later, nicholas acid and you bragged about how good you are writing porn movies and writing really good stories and writing really good dialogue, right? daniel says, yes, nechele sen. says, and now you have a story you have been telling about having sex with president trump, right? >> then daniel they'll says if that story was untrue, i would have written it to be a lot better and that the transcript notes laughter in the room. >> how do you think that offensive? >> i thought that piece of cross backfired on the defense in a big way. i thought that was a mistake. i don't think it resonated with the jury. i think the cross-examination that donald trump trump's lawyers did the first day back on tuesday was extremely effective. they undermined her and clear crisp ways today, i thought it was meandering and i

thought it was off the mark. there is a way that you can cross-examine stormy daniels very effectively in 45 seconds. >> what do you think? >> the reason they didn't do that is because this was a lot about what donald trump wanted to hear. >> that was are reporting yesterday and it seems to have played out that way in the court today. it's not optimal strategy. the points you hit are this, you hate donald trump, right? yes. you want him to go to prison yet, right? yes. you have posted twitter fantasies about how glorious it will be when he goes to prison, right? yes. you've made 1 million from selling your story to various outlets? yes, i had at you signed a written statement denying that you ever had sex with him in 2018? >> that's it. that's the that's the heart of the cross-examination. all this stuff trying to attack her for being a porn star to me is way off the mark and i think it undermine the effectiveness room. >> yeah, that part that we just talked about like i forget who was like the two or three people on my row sums like fantastic. because it was meaning the questioning, not the answer's know the answer to like, luck you know,

witnesses know how to get out of an answer, but it's like you've written these. i mean, how many witnesses get that you get to cross-examine write fiction for olivia. oh, so you get to be like this is what you do. you make up stories all the time. you make money by making up stories. don't you? of course, she's gonna give you a snide answer back but it was that moment was like pretty cool. okay. i mean, i'm not sure whether whether they're reacting to the questions or the answers and it's all the questions matter. >> judge said at the end and that he made a strong point. he said everything that you're complaining about, that you're saying should be a mistrial because is not relevant. one you didn't object to when she was asking about whether or not he used a condom, but that part he said, i understand for the life of me why you went so long on that other cross-examination because you're just drilling it into the jury's ears exactly. >> well, it's like you're just reminding them of everything that you are upset that they hurdled tuesday, sometimes the toothpaste comes out of the two

bright you can't get it back in so instead of it being that pure white clean crest, you try to dirty it up a little like you don't know kaitlan, you don't like, you. >> it's like a hot potato and you don't know how to handle it, but the judge one thing that he said when he did go into his chambers yesterday and he reviewed the transcript, he looked at that part, in particular that they cited as a reason why there should be a misra and he said there was no objection here. you didn't really look obviously that's a mistake. >> i was unpleasantly he surprised at the lack of objections. i think at one point susan said she thought there was a misinterpretation of the judge's ruling and the he she thought he allowed certain this things come in in a pretrial rule. >> let me read you what judge merchan said specifically about that. he said for some unexplained reason, which i still don't understand. there was no objection certain testimony which was later used in the motion for mistrial on tuesday and again, use today, for example, that mention of a condom. i agree that shouldn't have come out. i wish those questions hadn't been asked and i wish those answers hadn't been given. but for the life of me, i don't know why ms

necklace didn't object. she had just made about ten objections, most of which were sustained. why on earth, once she object to the mention of a condom, i don't understand. let me defense there's a necklace here. >> i think that's actually unfair by the judge. one, if the judge thought it was wildly inappropriate, the judge can stop it. judges all the time. we'll stop a witness, even with no objection from either party, they'll say now, hold on. stop. objection. sustained. sometimes we'll do that on their own. number to tactically, as a defense lawyer, you do not want to be or prosecutor, you do not want to be popping up ten questions or 15 questions in a row because it looks terrible in front of the jury. they think that you hate what's happening. you do have to keep something of a poker face. you have to play it cool. they did object several times as the judge notes right there. i don't think it's the job of either party to say every single little question. objection. you're gonna look obstructionist. it's going to look bad in front of the jury. i don't think that's a fair take by the shooter. >> i mean, i'm very curious to know what would be in the mind of donald trump listening to the judge in manish, this attorney who he himself was

sort of not i mean, i've got to know what touching to tell her to object more on tapping her a lot. >> i mean, i was watching him particularly as the judge was reading, was saying everything there and he was sitting back like this. i was making this motion with his hand, but he had this scowl on his face as he was listening like he knew the judge is not going to grant their motion for a mistrial, and he just thinks this judge, even though from everything that i've witnessed and everyone who's been in the court, the judge has been quite fair. he's gone out of his way to not try to call trump out front of the jury when they're in there and they just don't think he personally goes out and calls this judge corrupt ten times it goes into or the judges like doing his best to try to be fair. >> by the way this incredible denunciation of the judge over and over again from someone who claims that his first amendment rights have been taken away, didn't sound like as first amendment rights had been taken away to me. >> i mean, he is so free to

talk about anything under the sun except the witnesses and the jury that's really not much of a restriction and the idea that he's claiming this enormous victimhood while talking in the most scathing terms about this trial itself, is particularly our i mean, luck what he's saying about the judge and you're lawyer, it's i mean, it's embarrassing. i mean, i have no problem telling you if that was me. i would add a sidebar. i'd be like, your honor, you know, i have nothing to do with what my client is saying out in the hallway and i don't feel that way. that's how i would handle myself the other thing i found odd that must really do psychological damage to trump. not all judges anderson, when you, when they come into a courtroom, make you stand. there are a lot of judges in the state court that just say remain seated, remain seated because for whatever reason it's a preference, whatever you prefer. but judge merchan has everyone rise. >> i don't know last time

donald trump had rise when somebody else walked into the also called him, mr. trump, which is correct. i'd second reference to a president. you can hear his attorneys gallen, president trump, and everybody around him calls him president trump, and that's what you it's interesting by the way, the judge doesn't have to allow that. the judge can say no in this trial, you're going to refer to them as mr. trump. so he's allowing that k1s point about and being fair, he's allowing him to be called president trump, john berman, thanks very much coming up more on the mistrial motion that we've been talking about, the contentious moment between the judge and the defendant two over it and maggie haberman is taken what she calls a test of wills. she was in court, joins us now nothing like it was ever documented. >> i thought this is all controlled and save better rallies came mickey to shoot me copd hasn't been pretty it's

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pain-free, absorb been pro closed captioning brought to you by meso book our firm only represents mesothelioma victims and their families. if you or a loved one who has been diagnosed with ms ophelie oma collis. now but we wanted to talk more about how the trial

ended today, that combative moment between the judge and the defense over its second attempt and mistrial. >> our next guest witnessed it all joining us, new york times senior political correspondent, trump biographer maggie haberman, who has been inside the courtroom for the trial. so you wrote about that contentious hearing of the gag order and the miss trial. you said this is actually the kind of moment merchan has largely tried to avoid in this trial, it test a wills with the defense. he made it clear how angry he was with the arguments and that he thought trump's team was making them in battle. faith. can you just from your perspective, walk us through how that unfolded? >> is sure. so a couple of things that obstruct me throughout this trial because i attended several days of the e. jean carroll trial and the situation there was very different between trump in the judge judge kaplan and that case. >> that was a real battle of wills. >> and in the engoron case, the new york civil fraud case it was something of a circus and that trial and trump and the judge were going back and forth to my sean while the trump team really doesn't like him, he has tried being really fair on a bunch of points, including in a sidebar earlier this week saying to blanche when trump was cursing twice audibly, i'm

not doing this out loud. i don't want to embarrass your client. you've got to get him under control this was the moment i thought when we're sean had finally just had enough and was making very clear that he didn't think the arguments that blanche was putting forward, todd blanche the main lawyer here. we're in good faith. he really lit into susan nicholas, who had done the cross-examination of stormy daniels and said she had every opportunity to object to xyz and didn't they argued that there were reasons she didn't that there was a misunderstanding over the judge's instructions about what could be testified to, but he went on at length and he said something to the effective know i'm not going to adjust the gag because you can't tell me and good faith that your client is just going to answer rationally and not just attack these witnesses and it sort of summed up the argument against a lot of what trump has been saying and what the defense has been doing we're sean said, your opener was there was no sexual encounter that then opens the door for all the other questions and it's it's sort of hard to argue against

that now, i assume they will use all of this if there's a conviction on appeal and they might have some success of the court of appeals. >> but that's a ways away. and i think that's just sets a tone for what we're going to see in durians direction's going forward do you have any sense of how trump now, who he is angry or add the judge or his own attorneys. >> i mean, listening to your attorneys being yeah. >> i think there's enough to go around. i don't i don't think he's i don't i don't think i think he's pretty equal opportunity on that. i mean, he's he has been he has been he was very happy with how nicholas did on tuesday in the cross-examination of stormy daniels because she was very aggressive. susan nechele is very aggressive, although stormy daniels, while she did get tripped up on certain more minor details she did also have a pretty defiant posture that was consistent in defense of herself and they were very happy because stormy daniels had a bit of a rough outing with prosecutors earlier that morning, but a lot of that went away today in terms of the job today that the defense did. i

mean, how how did it play in the court in your perspective? >> it was it was rough. i mean, there was these were pretty minor semantic details. this is a necklace was pushing stormy daniels on over. did you actually eat dinner or was it just dinner where food was not concerned? tuned and that point was made over and over and over again to essentially try to trip stormy daniels up and suggests her story had changed and that was something that merchan said after court. her story really hasn't changed but the jury sees this, it ends up risking looking like you're just badgering this woman who is not the defendant in this case. susan necklace, has a very strong reputation as a trial defense lawyer. she has much more experienced than the men on that table. at that table, but i it's hard to separate when someone is working for donald trump. what's their own? >> once i'm wondering on the reporting because there were a lot of talk today that this was performative perhaps for donald

trump and extensor or at least add the behest abdominal. >> some of it's certainly felt like something he would like whether i mean she is susan nechele known as a very tough, aggressive lawyer in the courtroom but continuing to go at stormy daniels in this very contentious back-and-forth felt in the courtroom like a losing prospect after the first several times isn't it also possible that the miss trial motions themselves are about pleasing pleasing donald trump. those lawyers are smart enough to know they're not gonna win those miss trial motions. but they seem to be doing making these motions because they get to denounce the proceedings just like the way their client is doing in the press conferences afterwards and i don't i don't know what good that that does them, especially when the judge just slams the door at at the motion the way he did today. >> well, i would just go back to megan a point to that end. i mean, yes. yes. i think the ms trials were there mo and the previous trials, so i don't think this is some new thing

that we're seeing, number one, but number two, the point more shawn made about how their opening argument are there. okay. main statement was not to say the false business records are not real. it was to say sex never happened and that was their main focus. that's certainly pleasing the client i mean, it just the whole stormy daniels thing. >> i mean, it may have been a little bit of a trap for the prosecution to spend as much time as they did with her on tuesday. but then the defense really fell into that trap wholeheartedly by arguing over that point, it is completely irrelevant whether the sex happened or not. the idea that they would spend all this time on that today just i don't i don't understand. i don't understand it because it has taken us so far afield from what the jury is actually going to end up having to deliberate over as to whether or not donald trump was involved in falsifying those business records it has sucked up so much oxygen this weekend, the trial close to the whole picture in summation you can't believe this one or the liquid on the lives. this one told

petersen told pecker untold best until that one too. you've got to pile on. look, anderson or the flip side of that is for the prosecution this guy is lying about the sex what he's lying about me if he's going to lie to you about he's not testifying. they can't say that they can't say that unless donald trump takes the stand, they can say he's lying because he never took the stand. so they could say they want you to believe this, but they can't say he's lying to you about this, but so just in terms of how it works with the client and the defense attorney if it's attorney is not getting scolded a little bit by the judge here in there. you're not pushing the envelope enough. you got to push until you get right there. you don't want to jump over the line painted, jump over the line. there is getting for not going far. they're getting scolded for not getting going yeah five trials. the judge the judge is the one saying, you guys should have objected and you did not object. well, that's true. no, but i'm talking about the mistrial and this is known leg unique any lawyer he can tell you it's not a unique strategy

to ask for mistrial as much as you possibly can. you want to do it every day? every single day, and that's what they're doing. yeah. and the judge got annoyed. sorry, judge. i'm doing my thing. let go go on. join a cup of coffee. we'll see you later. we'll be back tomorrow. that's not a big harmless often their methods of client management for defense or is what i'm struck by is just how much of this trial is in the eye i have the behold army even here, that's too smart. >> people who were in the courtroom. so that's arthur said that the cross-examination today was searing and a huge win for trump's team. you seem to have seen it differently. mag, and this is by the way why we all ought to wait. i mean, we don't never know where he's gonna do. >> no, i agree. i have my dad. it's such an interesting example. but either of you could have been on that jury and now i definitely could not have been i think trump would instruct you. i think that's probably right. but it's just so interesting to see the opposite may just having been in that courtroom, once last week, how different it is when you're actually there and when you're just reading the messages on the outside, like we're doing and we're doing

the best we can bring viewers into that courtroom but without cameras or without actually sitting there, it is. >> you just you don't know? yeah. you did such a human experience? human beings and sweat and just smells and the whole thing and while he's also been i mean, trump is not exactly known for not telegraphing his stress. >> and so we have been able to see that to the extent we can see his face, which depends on how close you are to screen and whether you're allowed to use binoculars on a given day but there are days like this week when he has appeared visibly much more upset than at other times. and so, you don't really see that it's also just hard to understand if you don't sit through it. i mean, honestly, we don't sit through the whole trial. >> you don't really even have the same sense of it. i i've been talking to some colleagues who have been there episodically and you just have a different sense of it. if you have not heard all. of the testimony because it does all go to one story. >> and it seems to be even more than most trials this one calls for humility on our part in

terms of how the jury is reacting to things because you're talking about what jurors think of about sex, what they think about marital infidelity, what they think about porn i mean, all of which i don't know what they think and what are they offended by? are they offended by the underlying conduct or they offended by? how the questioning is going. >> i don't know. and i think it's very important to say we don't know there's two layers on the jury, which is the other thing to remember, and we don't know which both, both sides the prosecutors and the defense, both feel really good about for different reasons. and one of them will be right and we don't know which one hey, everyone. >> thanks very much. everyone stay with as next more on the final day of testimony from stormy daniels, i'm going to consultant makes the impact. that's ahead. >> the trump hush money trial gavel to gavel coverage. the way only cnn can bring it to you. legal insight expert analysis, and real-time updates live from the courtroom follow the facts, follow the testimony, follows. cnn you

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advil can help you save were how solomon in new york is cnn we're talking about how difficult it is to know what a jury is thinking. >> there were certainly a lot for the jury to taking the trump trial today on this final day of testimony from stormy daniels that we're talking about that moment when the attorney, susan nicklaus, tried to use daniels work as an adult film star against her. there's also what jurors heard when things seemed to take a strange turn, nicholas asking daniels, quote, you have made a show and podcasts claiming that you can speak to dead people, right? to which day? daniels eventually replied, yes. she then asked you also claimed that you lived in a house in new orleans. it was haunted two, which daniel's answered. yes. so the house was has some very unexplained activity and then went on to say, quote, a lot of the activity was completely debunked, as you know, a giant pawsome that was under the under the house back with our panel joining us now is jury consultant alan tuerkheimer it's simply because last time we talked, you said that jurors don't like anyone wasting

their time, and i'm wondering if what you made a the rabbit hole, the defense tried to take stormy daniels down today i can't pinpoint exactly when it happened, but i'm pretty confident that at some point stormy daniels fatigue set in on the part of this jury. she made her points. you talked about the encounter and then how team trump didn't wanna getting out. so i don't think impressions changed that much today or how the jurors see her role in all of this. now with the subsequent witnesses it was very interesting because jurors were able to focus less on the seductive elements of the case and more on the important parts of the prosecution's case. they were able to see how unsigned checks went from new york to dc back to new york with trump's signature on them. it's very interesting, i think at this point even though they're going to pay attention to the evidence and listen to the witnesses. jurors user on common sense and the recollections of the trump presidency. and we saw some of that today when it was brought out that while trump's spent a lot of time tweeting, we know that from spend time golfing, it's not a shot at him.

presidents like the golf he spent time calling, watching news, and calling into the shows so i think that jurors are thinking, yeah, you know what, he probably knew what he was signing when you sign the checks. and what's interesting is also that jurors tend to hold people at the top accountable and the excuse, while i delegated well, i didn't know about it. it seemed as a responsibility dodge by a lot of jurors. so i think at this point, there are favoring the prosecution. they're doing well, there's a lot to be left, but most jurors are probably aligned with the problem when you interview jurors in days afterward and you learn what would registered with him. i mean, does it boil down to who they trust and who they don't like? oh, i i believe that in general, i believe this person i may not have liked them, but i believe them. i don't believe this person is that how or is it i mean, there's two lawyers on this jury. i don't know if that would change that dynamic, but i mean, is that sort of how decisions are made up? sometimes witness credibility is huge. and when i do talk to jurors, they usually reference

one, maybe two witnesses, and then within those witnesses, who they say are quite credible believable, likable, bulk flow, focus on a portion of the testimony that really get it for them. sometimes it's known as a ha moment where they think, yeah, you know what i was listening to everything and then this witness said this and then i kind of thought, well, i know what's going on with with the case. >> can i ask you a question about sort of the buck stops here. you said they don't like jurors don't like when a big shot tries to blame the lesser status people. >> but the issue in this case is, did the corporate records that were signed that we're prepared by lower people in the pecking order did trump know about that what do you think a juror is going to adjourn? >> just think he was a billionaire. what did he know about how a bookkeeper prepared her records and a good argument? it's certainly the hope of the defense, but i just think it falls flat. and again, you just need one juror to think that what you were talking about. but most jurors

especially with when they when they learned about how trump was so involved in the finances and interested in how things worked and he didn't just give up everything about his business when he came elected president. so i think it's a tough sell, but certainly if there's a juror two on there, maybe one of the lawyers on there that'll that'll help things. >> that's come out in how the trump operation worked how to do it that drop-down menu, where when they had when they had to do bookkeeping, there were only certain places that categories that you could check off and i got to tell you, i don't think the sitting president of the united states is really i understand. look, the people in my opinion, a proven beyond a reasonable doubt, he signed those checks and he knew what they were four meaning to how to do it. this stormy daniels non-disclosure agreement, i think that's that's done. that's not the crime. the crime is the next piece of the puzzle. this donald trump in washington dc in the white house golfing do whenever he's doing, does he know what's going on at the trump corporation where in the

log books are wearing that clicked down menu. it's being logged that's that hasn't been proven at all yet right. >> i think jurors make inferences to something like this, and i think they probably are. and some of them are thinking, yeah, he he knew about it and we haven't heard from the defense witnesses. they're going to be open to hearing what the defense narrative is to counteract that, but i just think jurors would they bring with them their common sense and once they start to arrive at how they think the case should turn out, then they need something that's pretty stark to contradict that disabuse them the difficulty is the person who tried trump would have had that conversation with was allen weisselberg weisselberg is not talking right. and that's gift to the defense that he's he's off limits. >> but i guess i don't know which way common sense it's cuts in this. >> did donald trump know that this whole thing was designed to hide the fact that this was a payoff or does donald trump just not know or care how doc

how checks are characterized on some ancient piece of software. >> the other question is, why is keith schiller not a witness? keys schiller's name has been mentioned as much as anyone's. he was trump's longtime bodyguard. he was the one who is there present in 2006 when he was one who stormy daniels says facilitated their dinner, but also madeline western out the white house aide who was basically trump's gatekeeper, the white house who testified late this afternoon also said that this checks were sent to two people, jonny makin, t, and keith schiller. they were the ones who sat right now outside the oval office with her and that he was basically the one who had helped make sure that checks got mailed back and were sent when she was the one in charge of where they are being sent. his name does not come up. he's not a witness in this case based on what we know so far, i wonder my thing can i ask you a question about keith schiller? he was part of the trump administration, but left early. he was not there to the end or was he keeps killer was not there until the end. he left and he was still getting paid by the trump organization when trump left, it wasn't

clear what he was actually doing for them, but it was it was a setup. it seemed that he could still be taken care of we have paid solve a job, but no one has heard from him since i feel like if there's any witness that's going to be a hostile witness for the prosecution that would be keith schiller. he would not take kindly to being asked to say negative things about his longtime boss, someone who basically trump made i mean, keats trump took keith schiller from no nowhere and basically put them in the white house. so i think their relationship would be i mean, i don't know if that would factor in for the prosecution, but a witness like madeline muster hout, who still likes trump, but it's not hostile. is the best you can get. you. she's not going to be hostile to you as the prosecutor, but she's not throwing her boss under the bus. keith schiller, i think would be a hostel. i'm sure that's exactly the calculation you cannot take a risk of putting someone on the stand who you think is a dyed in the wool loyalist of the defendant and i don't think that all

western house was at that level. one other important point caitlin asks the jury is gonna be wondering, where's keith schiller? all of these questions, where's keith schiller? where's karen mcdougal? those are bad for the prosecution because the prosecution is the one that has the burden of proving their case beyond a reasonable doubt. very common defense tactic, stand up and closing you go. where's k shell or folks don't you think you should or heard from him? they didn't call him, not saying it's fatal here. i don't think there's anyone who's so obviously missing. it's going to cost them the case. but all those missing witnesses are not great for prosecution in tuerkheimer. >> thank you so much. it's great to have you. >> thank you. rest or back with us in a moment as we dive into more testimony from the trial today. plus what michael cohen in his now saying about his expected testimony from friends coming over mom's coming over so many ways to save life ready while it happy. but 3605 by whole foods market new trade

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imprint.com in brynn for certain. >> i'm are let signs at the white house and this is cnn just about 9:00 p.m. here in new york, fastening day 14 of the trump hush money criminal trial. now, in the book, stormy daniels round get up two days on the stand managing to turn a portion