ation tend to shape tomorrow join us and register now for the dw global media for in 2020, for the 5 months into the war and gaza and deadly chaos around. in a convoy has glaringly highlighted the desperation and climbing death toll among civilians. the cottage of humanity is something they haven't seen protected. my guess this week on complex own is not to find me. former egyptian foreign minister and long time diplomat of what points as egypt have no choice, but to consider opening its border. 2 thousands on through monetary and grounds. have the shocking scenes of suffering, process conflict to an inflection point. now this on the welcome to conflicts own thank you. tragic deaths around in a tomboy in northern gauze,

have highlighted the desperation of civilians for food. and the lack of security in the enclave. after everything that you've seen in the past days, is it time for egypt to open its border to civilians from gaza. tom, opening the pods of indians is this would be participating in a pre meditation, consistent effort. 5 is the way it is to decrease the density of palestinians on their own territory and its something was pleasant they, we will not do because we support a part of city and state side by side. with that, we continue to take part of attendance in need of medical supervision or medical help. uh we take so, but a large scale, a number of products. the names were basically, we were playing into these really acts. but you know, it just has certainly made that red line quite clear. they will not accept any force displacement of palestinians. but how do you balance the humanitarian desperation? i mean, you know, saved the children just out this past week,

saying that we are quote, witnessing a mass killing of children in slow motion because there is no more food left. how do you, how do you balance that with your red lines? it's an absolutely great question. we are in a very difficult situation. we cannot allow products and use the star. we don't want them to be shot at. at the same time, we don't want to be forced into a position where we collaborate. indirectly with these ratings by decreasing the best that i've seen it. so what they're doing is provide the as much assistance as we can turn the order. we had dropped also just about 48 hours ago and they continue to host negotiations with each varies. and the countries to try to do with all these issues. but i guess my point is, you know, at what point does egypt have no other choice morally then to open the border? because you know, we know what this is not a crisis of you're making,

but does egypt need to do more to help the people on the ground? i think we are doing quite a bit. but yes, i agree with you. there will be a situation where if they're forced across the board, we will have to make very difficult decision. but how we respond to we, we clearly are not going to care for our students. but that being said, uh it should not be interpreted as meaning. push them across the border and we will that yes, because pushing out across the board is not only a violation of punish penny and rights. it's also by the way, if violation of egypt is 80 percent we know of consequence. yeah. and you know, i'd like to ask you a little bit about what is happening right now on the ground at the border because there has been a lot of questions about that. egypt has been building some sort of security perimeter at the border last month. your foreign minister classified as what he called maintenance on the border. isn't egypt planning an area to house palestinians in case of and it's really offensive on rafa. n o i was,

i don't know exactly it, but let me tell you what i don't know. the area where there is construction was originally an area of license buildings. they were taken down and people were to move out. the government rebuilt that area and invited the directions to go back to that, that they have not yet gotten back to that period. and it's something that has been going on for over a year. you had the, the guys that break out during the last 5 months. so the pressure also became, uh, what are we going to do is the by the cities are forced across support. uh, we will have to deal with a very dire you might a charity situation, but we will also have to deal with a situation where we will not, in any way directly or indirectly condone is really action that virus by the city and rights. and that's a speck, but also that violate the junction is

a piece of it. and that needs to be clearly understood as, yeah, so let me ask you a little bit more about the diplomacy that might be going on behind closed doors right now because and israel's foreign minister has said that they have to and i'm quoting here, deal with rafa. because they cannot just leave him off there and that it would coordinate with egypt to address concerns about refugees. what conversations do you think are happening right now between egypt and israel, especially when it comes to, you know, potential incentives, for example. i mean, you know, money and incentives for egypt to take refugees wouldn't hurt what it this is not an issue of money and it said, this is an issue. we are committed to a to states used to stay the part of city and part of that of the just states is guys and the west. like if we were to reduce the numbers there, that would be very, very gauge. some is a politicians in the cabinets have opened. he said, yes,

we need to move by the seniors out of guys that are entered egypt or even into your and will fight financing to do so. that's the advocate part so we can make this look. oh, but we have made it also clear that we will not participate in this process. uh and i can tell you that effects are nice and secure and that's a violation of the patient is taking it back to getting aid and air dropping of aid is picking up. even the united states has joined in there are currently discussions on how else to expand the flow, and you know, it's been reported that president biden spoke last week with president. i'll cc about urgency of negotiations and bringing more 8 into gaza. i mean, as egypt your next door, you're trying to get calm boys in. do you see the potential, if anything, shifting on the ground so that more aid can enter? yes, i do see if there is a hostage,

a partial hostility change versus incarcerated, and a temporary cease fire that can facilitate a going in the least most recent incident that we saw just was 3 days ago. this was a actually you brought in and organized by palestinians and his race. but given that it was a caustic, some is raised themselves. the fact the, the group of people who are gathered around the do you think they are so you can't have a state a substantial amount of a going in and a war zone in a culture. so there's no way to work secure area. so yes, we want why we always think the negotiations on ceasefire also to change. one of the reasons stop getting people killed but also about for more effective. you mention it right? and just to pick up on one thing that you said there, i mean the idea is actually said that indeed they did fire, but they didn't actually fire on individuals who were seeking to get a. but again,

there's, there's 2 sides of the story. so i just want to highlight that that's the, the perspective that they are bringing in and the official statements. let's take it back to the ceasefire talks because they, they were due at the time of this interview. they were due to kick off in cairo, egypt, and could tar have been mediating between israel and tomas and your foreign minister has said in the past days that he's optimistic about a temporary cease fire being reached before ramadan. what do you think that she sees that might point to optimism for deal? well, again, you have to ask them. let me tell you what i think he meant he meets up. if you sit and listen to what we can to national rhetoric. everybody, everybody has been telling these rays and thomas, let's, how does the swab before run about? they're worried about the situation on the ground. you may have to area political,

but they're also worried about it breaking out beyond the borders in the states on the, on, on his baseboard. so there's also the strength of expansion. uh that's, that is what i think we're see. now again, 2 points to fabulous here. one, this is not a full face for, nor at full of hostages 6. this is a partial positive exchange versus those incarcerated and a temporary cease one. so it will be a positive step towards a complete ceasefire. you're not going to get with the addition of the conflict or an ability to start rebuilding what has been destroyed unless you get a complex. but as one of the, you know, the traditional mediators between these parties, i talk with a little bit about how you think the pressure on those parties might be right now. because we, we have world leaders speaking out loudly against the scenes of suffering right now

. and gaza, even the us is real strongest allies seems frustrated. do you see this as an inflection point in the crisis? do you feel the mood could change the dynamics on the ground again? so it goes up to that question. i think it does, but it has a section point from either we, we start a process of trying to deal with the imaginary situation where substantially and hopefully then the post politics, the policies and the security situation or inflection point will be that it will work to move towards a highly of all the time regional context. i don't mean sol slipped out this way. he was a domain. you see everything from tension and alexi to the lebanese border to the syrian border. stuff right. what's happening inside garza problems on our border as

well? this is going to break out of hand, so the inflection point is either we find a way to slow this box down and try to resolve. it's always going to break out beyond control. so you've made the bridge, they're basically from the temporary cease fire talks. now, to something a little bit more longer term and there seems to be a lot of will and diplomatic momentum. we have to say from both arab states and israel's allies, including the us and the u. k. to secure such a long term lasting piece that would indeed include a 2 state solution. you know, you, you've seen over many decades the, all of the previous efforts that have failed is something different this time yes. the college of getting humanity is something we haven't seen. project was always a horrible incident in inside israel or a month brought us to new territories into such a nation of meters by the way,

not by the other side, but private, wrong people. so we've seen that, but to see 5 months, 30000 people killed, at least because there are those under the wrong that we don't count for 70 percent of home women and children and children starting. we have not seen that in a very long, long time. so that's something which, frankly, i come from egypt, we were the 1st to have a piece of people with these ways. and that's almost 50 years ago. 50 years after the 1st pace agreement with this it to see not only the lack of control, you know, a comprehensive piece completely, but to see the level of q like and, and, and, and, and counter binds is frankly quite shocking. and it really birds and my god as how have you been part of this process for single and as,

and as you are coming from egypt, i'd like to ask you about the saudi lead group of arab states that includes egypt. jordan katara, the u, a. e, which is reportedly now pushing this post floor plan that would include a reformed the palestinian authority governed in gaza and a reversible path toward a 2 state solution. from the perspective of arab diplomacy. what could be offered to sweeten the deal for israel? because i mean, you've highlighted the trauma of these societies, is that the violence of bloodshed, there is no appetite right now for 2 states solution israel after october 7th or so that's why i mean, what i let me talk about what i think can be done rather than what's on the table by the, our group because i don't know actually how far they've gone. ok. i said crisis and concert. we need to say, i'll give you 10 quick points, intense x, 6 fire hostage exchange doesn't cost the rate that you want a terry support. uh,

security arrangements between palestinians is always in goza, including withdrawal of israeli forces. a, a, a declaration to recognize you find a city and state based on 6 months. 67 by saying is the under occupation by we must say it's it's, it's stopped by the city and state under occupation based on 67 reformation by the error countries of their error. they would summit where they said they would all have relations with as well. if there is an end of, of occupation, i want to put all of that under a security council was using every one of these points by the way, a supported by oh gosh, i create i want to have that adopted by the tasha by the security council in an affirmative vote, and then we go to the parks because that will also require by the way,

elections in as well. elections that aren't quite a city. it's essentially the government may ask a lot of settings. yep. i mean it's, it's, you know, you're presenting here a plan, but i, i also want to ask you how you get that planned on with the mood that is currently on the ground. these really cabinet right now has said that any recognition of a palestinian statehood in the wake of the mos terror attacks on israel, on october 7th, which as we know, killed 1200 people and 250 were taken hostage. they've said, and i'm quoting here, it would give a huge reward to unprecedented terrorism. what's your response to that? we're not dealing with one part of the problem rather than the other. what i didn't hear with is the whole issue, and i'm not actually asking these varies, and palestinians accepted at the beginning. what i'm saying is that us egypt, russia, china, french u. k unit. we've also pointed to say so huge. let's agree to this annotated package

. and go with it. so these are ways and by the city showing that the okay, you have is east fire. you will have secure it has, will have security. but as soon as we'll have a release from what's happening, you're going to have to establish in your government, send it to deal with guys and the west bank. so we're dealing with the whole sneak of to get it. and slowly, within a 2 year period, we can get there if you go to the, to the, to the address today. cuz i know you probably got in a month. okay. wife cathy, alex, take charge of guys and manage that and provide security. and that's a question which exemptions i've been at. as for hundreds of times it's probably the most logical, you know, responsible question. anybody can think of because we will not be surrogates, varies, but you know, there's that they were preserved. let me just continue. but here's the thing, yeah, they what they will, but i just need to follow up with you on that because you know and ask you to

actually respond to what israel has put forward. they set out this competing plan for postwar garza, it does not include a 2 state solution. it does include overseeing security in the enclave. you've talked about security there. in fact, netanyahu says that israel should have security control over the philadelphia cord, or we know that's that borders own between garza and egypt. do you see any circumstances you've talked about coming together? do you see any circumstances under which egypt will be willing to accept that the opposite? cuz not because that's what basically me. so what are the alternatives we occupied a security perspective. this is by point. yeah, let me just tell you if you tell me that this 10 point plan or a point of a number of points you want, what ultimately need show at the city and state down the road, then you can get you anything and it will not involved is way the security supervision over guess the out of state will i?

that's what to you. ready to help rebuild not to know what the rate of the bill and we'll train and create mechanisms for better management engaged with the westport, but they're not going to be so good. so basically security is absolutely no way that they would accept that for you more. the reason why say that responsible if we want to put the different forces or training is in, we have a piece of human with these weights. and these weight is inter amendments here. what do we do to them? we end up shooting, but as soon as it is ready, it's not going to happen. you've highlighted all the challenges spoken, but what all the alternatives they go through is give me a structure for a plan. and then we can look at ok is a security managed by an arrow international, contingent, orange and national contingent, palestinian contingent with our oversight. the details are, are, are plausible, and we can look at creative solutions,

but not solutions that end up with the facto is very optimization of guys that cannot. but i, i look again, we was a 1st design, a piece of human with this. so that is, will want security, we accept that and we're looking at ways to achieve that, but only based on you can't have security unless you solve the problem. the problem is occupation. and these ladies want more transparency and more effectively security that we can, that we could look at, provided that the principal and the doctor patients there. let's, let's move on because um, you know, egypt has been also part of this rethink of politics and palestinians. air power sending areas and part of you know, the plans for potential governance within gauze itself. how do you see the prospects for fragmented palestinian politics to be able to unite after the war? because any of the palestinian authority president lockwood have boss is looking set to stay in his position along with his security chiefs. do you think palestinians will accept that and that the pe might administer gaza is widely

unpopular? let me put it this way. the only way to really administrator does that in a way that's the sector for part of sentience. and also we also were accepted by these ladies without occupation is to have a policy in person and you understand whether we liked it or not. promise have less support before october 7th. now they have more support, not because of what they did, but because it is a reaction to, to what they did that kind of without deduct. it, loaded the ph this already the page quite a bit, excuse me. but we need to rebuild that. it may require new leaders are not, had lost it to that. all i'm saying is that, yes, you're, you're heading to the point right on the, on,

on the head. we need to get published and use to look for a new for me. that's why i said we need to elections and we need it picked up by the government. and there's both, what's back and guess there's a big debate also raging right now, about whether or not to what extent her mazda should be involved in all of that. egypt for its part has acted as a mediator between her moss and its foes. israel, in fact, as we've highlighted, it's also worked with him boss in recent years to counter and his lovick insurgency and the sign i, but you don't for you personally when you look at the situation after the horrors of october, 7th can be really be part of a post war scenario. again, typically the scenario if it's a plus for scenario, where we continue to have cyprus of violence, they'll be part. there's no question then be fine. because the asset metrical, even though many countries around the world consider them to be a terrorist organization, the united states, a do israel. and so this isn't a, this is the be careful year. i didn't stay at postwar scenario. we have peace. i

said, if we continue to have a cycle of buttons they, they, they are others, other forms of comments will continue to exercise what they pursue as their policy . what i quit body forward is i want to rebuild about a senior constituency that is effectively supported and presented to it just a seduce. if parties don't want to accept that, then suddenly they get qualified himself re part of that process is like, do they will have to change and let's also be civically. can you want, who are we to motion and what now? the peer to have the option to change. so is as little as you to with now. who is us with now? oh is it my question for you? is how much? so they are, is it my issue is not whether they're, they're not, they are the my issue is how do i built a,

a scenario that allows for addictions for our, at this very piece, including part of thing is a piece. those who don't one piece, we will that work again. but frankly, i'm the one that we're being asked to talk to thomas, who's relations with each of we're always very, very care. uh, but we're asked to talk to them now and then we hear, but they're not part of the parents. well, okay, so it was, we talked so then i mean, you know, when you look at all of the scenarios that are possible coming out of this, 1st of all, how do you think the war and gaza ends? and when do you see it ending? uh, do you think you'll see a permanent and sized dawslet any time soon? i don't, i don't, i don't say you'll see a short term complete, and you will probably fine get what hostage agreement temporaries for and then

another. but then you'll have outbreaks from the agreement and regression neither side really is made to make a strategic decision. we got these varies or mass. uh and that's the that is what is required. that's why at the beginning i said, let's put together a package that we outside the region. but i, we, we beyond the parties accept. and then we start talking to the party's, their center, to see if we could sell this piece. and i, i, we would, they said to make today is not 4 to 6 use, but actually it's the only ones we'll get them out of this process. as a swimmer negotiator, do i think i could go and and do it tomorrow. of course not. the states lawson cannot be reached then what i mean? what realistic alternative do you see to a 2 state solution that can provide peace in the region or is there non there,

there is not, which is the others alternative is a once the reality, which would be a continuous concept, same person is res. because they also want national identity on a very small piece of land and neither side will give it up complexity to the other . furthermore, if you don't allow that equal rights, you will have conflicts with in the one state. so it toothpaste usually is extremely difficult. and one states and usually is computing your boss as it is. and once the reality is going to your concept, not off on a we have unfortunately run out of time. we thank you so much for joining us here on conflicts on thank you for your time. thank you. the,

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