worse does your or the hello and welcome to cross ok. we're all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle. the 9th of may is a venerated day on the russian calendar in march the victory over fascism in europe . in 1945. tragically, the collective west just forgotten. the cross talking victory de, i'm joined by my guest, laudermill goldstein in providence. he is the chair of the department of slavic studies at brown university. in belgrade we have steven guides. he is

a research associate at build rates. institute of european studies adding b on and we crossed to alexander markovich. he is head of the 2 vote off institute in vienna. i found in cross lock roles and the fact that means he can jump any time you want. and i always appreciate vladimir, you were born in the soviet union. so i want to go down history lane since this is actually a program about history, a very important history for millions and millions of people around the world, particularly in russia. what was victory day like when you were living in the soviet union as well? it was, i'm really, really, you know, joyful a holiday. you know, 1st of all, there was a call kind of glossed out of, you know, may, these may 1st, may, 2nd may, may not. and so i really, it was like spring, everybody was celebrating and you know, there was, of course, so it shouldn't be just sweet moments. my father was in the war and you know, they always, you know, when people get together there was, remember those google keel that who were not there with them. but still the mood

was at the very 1st, you know, no school. you're going to watch amazing parade, and on tv at 8 was, you know, you can see, you know, people marching. so it was just a lot of a lot of lives, a lot of call lots and lots of joy. you know, i, i don't know how many, you know, russians really at that moment solve and so, you know, and started to use that or whatever. but it was like, we all knew, it was like, you know, bones that this is a very on foot. it'd be that there's a new it in your boat and so you know, it that's come that's here again. and i'll talk about that later in the program here, because i want to talk about how the picture day is being read defined in a very good way. in my opinion statement, you know, in my introduction, the collective west is primarily overwhelmingly kind of forgotten this day, this victory day on may, 9th. why is that? okay. i mean, it is,

they don't want to give credit to the soviet union slash russians if they have a fascism problem. now in the west though, there's a lot of different avenues we could discuss when we talk about the app. if be in the west, i think of the george or little game it was the answer is 1984. the ministry of truth is creating or recreating the boss. so that is why i, because of the currents of political issues or political agendas, they are a minuscule in the middle of the soviet union. they don't want to mention that almost 30000000 a soviet, most the russian citizens died, were killed or died liberating europe. and especially now that we have this revival of naziism in the, in the west, in general, but especially on the european content 1st and started with eastern europe, but then it spread. uh so uh, if the rumors are true,

uh, the symbolism of the victory, the russian flags, the soviet flags would it be banned in, in berlin for the 9th of may. but we'll see. anyways, uh that is a is a issue that they have a problem with and also uh well when we talk about historical revisionism, it is germany that is not as k that came out with a resolution that wants the slander ser herbs. and that was the germans who during world war 2 shots of thousands of. busy natalie citizens, but also a screen children, especially in the, in the city of crowd we have that's during world war 2. so uh now uh it was historical revisionism his game to outrages levels as well. it's very interesting. alexander, when i was a young man,

one of the most impressive documentary is i've ever seen up. up until today was the world, the war was made up by the b, b, c. and it was a brilliant, brilliant series. it primarily because it had witnesses, people that were actually witnessed the events making these kind of document present were very difficult because it get really, you don't have witnesses that it's essentially been washed away. it's not on youtube anymore. when it was a got, it had millions of hits, it was one of the but i, i believe one of the greatest documents was ever made. but there was a 2 episodes in that documentary series that was, i guess you would say today with sympathetic to the soviet union. that's for bowden today. alexander. well, yes, um. as i mentioned before, there's a certain political trends in the west which actually tries to diminish the soviet casualties. and um, also the soviet contribution to actually defeating fascism,

the media and the story all proceed. and therefore of course, for example, if you look at the change of the official narrative from the west, if you could somehow get the impression that it was actually not the soviet union fighting against hitler and the nazis and was a 2 bots that there was some kind of ally of national socialism and fascism. yeah. instead, it was just because of the united states of great britain that's specialist and was defeated, which is of course, totally wrong thoughts since you don't all have this western um, war of aggression against russia and um, in this overall war. so ukraine of cause you're trying to keep an ice russia as much as possible. and um, this means also um, altering the history itself like um said before the ministry of truth is live and

well again, it seems and stuff for you. i have this strange kind of, um, yeah, history policy um going on? no. the only tri, many way or no. uh, no longer logs to show. so if you have flex on the um associates they are for 3. but the where the drum and media for example, also try to portray um, letting me put in um as the 2nd the other fiddler. um yeah. us back in an hour. if it's all a while, the same germany that you're talking about is arming a fascist big battalions in, in your, in ukraine. so it actually looks at germany has a lot to it has a lot to answer for particularly today. okay. why don't me, you know, one of the things that we've seen here is that when we look at the narrative of the destruction of fascism in europe, you have a, yeah, the hollywood version saving private. ryan,

the wars over after the invasion of normandy, apparently to hollywood. and then you have this very despicable trend of equating this, the soviet union. and nazi germany is being the same thing. both are historically obviously wrong. vladimir. yeah, he is being that asian unfortunately. and it was very, you know, very successful campaign i guess in the west, you know, we know by the side is when they asked a french people that ride after the war, every contribution in the rush or what would be like, i can see that like the main continue to the victory you move for was 30 years ago, you know, the same paul, and all of a sudden the same french people say that, you know, united states, i mean contributor and i tell you a complete exec, i don't need any of those from my teaching to the where it is in the course that he hello places on the russian culture and my quality historian says to the students, they went to talking about war 2. and that's for russia,

one the war students look like with a big surprise. you know, i think and he said yeah, yeah. and brings always going to what was concrete, historical data that they had, you know, okay. you a young students that listen to that, then i am hanging out with my friends all university indicated. and they just refer to the zip is all they looked at me was of course, americans wonder what are you talking about. so these are them making things up as you know, i know i know this of that. so, but i would add that it is done for a very particular end of that. and if it is in bed, the reason because if you already know is that the russians last so many people in the, you know, such a, such a major event. you're bound to take the country and it's interest very seriously. you're bound to take very concerns about national security or, you know, the safety of the board has to use if you, if you think that they didn't do anything, they just don't think it was due. and i think it's really kind of funny of how the whole narrative shift event. you know, now 1st of all,

take the interest of jewish people serious me. they remember there was a fall of course. so this is taken seriously. but the last of forget about it, and this is kind of really peculiar. so, you know, we won't bends over backwards to understand the drama. still understand it isn't that there's all legitimate it. but what about, you know, russia, what about the national goods and they've been, the board has been crossed again and again and again. but in reading your being forces, who is the jessica because i didn't was the russian because initially they just avoid diminishes. and, and just into and even the item of the game tweak now. russians do not. yeah, you know, as, as stephen the, the historical fact is that the, the, the red army liberated all of the death camps and other camps as it moved west. that history is being forgotten to steven. exactly. i mean, if you ask people, i remember personally, i was starting in the united states and i have these conversations of we were to

and, and who was the greatest computer contributor? i was obviously saying it was the soviet union and people would laugh. i mean, they think that the war was one in the pacific. in battles on some islands with dirt, but with japan and in normandy. and the rest is a, is some blurry picture to doesn't really exist, especially the uh, the story with the death camps. deborah. oh, liberated by the soviet union. and this is why the holocaust ended when the red army entered these places. so up until they were liberated the factories of that were working and this is one of the, the low st gray this the she, when he, terry and achievements during the war. but it is only one of the episode, and it is not only not recognized. uh, but uh,

it seems that the sanctions, b, c of west against russia are going to be on today's moment. however, uh, by doing this uh, the mainstream western history obviously has isolated itself as the west has in general. well, what they do before we go to the rank here, they celebrate nazis and canada. we saw that. okay, we saw that in the end, and that's not going to be the end of a gentleman. i'm going to jump in here. we're gonna go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on victory de state without the, the, the,

the analysis that they, that should let you think. he said that then you can put them in. so facade, and the, and then he would do it assuming that the to, for them to look into intermedia nikoto is the most of the some seems send the most of the, to the, to the most of the young it's, it's almost almost a cliche in the west, but this whole idea of my, to the last refrain in that some truth behind it. i mean,

think about it for the american, the $60000000000.00 for the reason. a package, not a lot of money. a lot of money stays within the united states in terms of the defense contracts and the like and pulled out money that, you know, they fight side. they prolonged the war to keep russia busy. you know, this is the, ultimately, that's what the west is doing. is all about you know, trying to preserve west to take him and the welcome back across stock. were all things are considered. i'm funeral about you mind you were discussing victory day the okay, let's go back to alexandria, indiana. one of the interesting things here. since we're talking about history and history all graphy, we look at the present day,

the proxy war that is being waged against russia using ukraine. if we think back into 1941, when the soviet union was invaded, nazi germany had an array of a co, a coalition of countries it occupied. it was allied with and it was a collective west, not the united states yet, but in the collective west, under the rule of the nazi germany invaded the soviet union. now let's go up to today. russia is facing a wide coalition of western countries, almost exactly the same ones. and it stand off over you quite a lot. you know, if you say that, that's all that's heresy for a lot of people. because, you know, with, with russia is saying, and autonomy, or is already touched upon and, you know, wave after wave. where is of invasions, where do they come from? they come from the west. so ed alexander. um, yes, exactly. i just recently watched um the great movie um, alexander, may i ask to buy a sec a um eisenstein, which actually premier than 19 um,

i guess it was 1941 um, shortly before the start of operation. but most of the not situation of the soviet union, which actually had this very topic that there was a long history of westland aggression against russia. of course, coming from the west to russia. it because the west is not able to accept russia as the other as a different civilization. right. which is actually not itself and therefore it's, yeah, regularly you could say, tries to destroy russia. i'm to obliterate it, to colonize it's um, to carry the parts as we could see in all these plants about the so called the colonization of russia. and unfortunately, there are also these plans of exterminating russian people as we could see. not only during cannot, i've gone aust butts. also during the see if puts machine since 2014 events in

odessa. what's happened in don't boss which domestic goes there. and yeah, that's what of course the west somehow tries. um. so let's actually, despite the fact that it's that there is a long history also, aggressions coming from the west to russia. instead of course, russia um is not illuminating um or insane. if it says that it has a need for secure to guarantees by the west that it has a need for peace in eastern europe and for security zone and out of course style for history maybe is not directly repeating itself, but it's rhymes. yeah, i think there's, there's going to and see there's a real time running from the middle ages. exactly what the nazi address and on so no, no doubt that there is a pattern here. vladimir, it's very interesting. again, if you look at the, if you want to take history seriously, russia,

what we to imperial russia, what we call russian today, is the only major land mass, the western powers never call on ice. and that is what they see is a missed opportunity and they, they, they haven't given up on it. they, russia is the only one that stands out there was not colonized by an outside or vladimir. oh, yeah, it's a unique civilization. there is a very good story and marshal ball and he wrote about that. he said, yes, it's, and indeed is that, you know, a peculiar uh, unique cautions organization or which it didn't fall on the other risk than it's x . you know, you can look for either, you know, for me, so it is age and older minds, indians, mexicans, and chinese. they all will cross by the west and it will shape in the there they own the image and likeness as opposed to roger who deals with usually goes into the, you know, tremendous efforts to defeat a, you know, a very innovative. and i would say with an ad to alexander, you're not allow alexander in the near few film these uh,

20 tonights which in rate is, are, you know, are i just lands that in yesterday defeated? so i'll send you, they will actually related to this for a rest the night school in the 4th grade on their way to every jerusalem. they actually 6 comes on general, but yeah, they just drop this off the ropes in house and that is what they did. so these are the say are very, you know, say we were getting and there also it sort of hostility just to really just didn't mention over, i should as well because it actually is your, you need a careful of fish. jayenne is sort as ation religion. so somehow the wrist feels very uncomfortable about it, was it because all of this and was amount over sources and it is a model. yeah. oh lou and, and it was like, you know, a very big interface the, a more so for the west ramp and they continue to do that. so it's

a lot of noise as of what you expect and that's paranoid, you know, saving it again, broadly speaking, if we look at what would many would call the greatest hills of the, of the 20th century fascism in for many people, communism fair enough here. but they're all what, those are western ideas, western ideas. they came from the west. unfortunately, it took cold in it, and i'm just expressing my opinion in russia. russia is recovered from that promoters experience. but these are western ideas they, russia is had to confront. yeah. that is, uh to, uh, i'd like to go back to the, the issue of broader you're a, be a west here to be a coalition as a guest against russia. this is in a way, a unique situation that we are witnessing now that the west is almost completely united or completely united against russia. but it was not the 1st time, only 19th century, there was a try me of war. uh, look at the quotation of a broader pollution of western countries. but also before that,

the napoleonic wars, we always see it as a russians versus the french. but in fact, the french army goes listed of many other western european peoples and, and small armies that were there were joining in. so in a sense, there is a cycle, a historical cycle of the component. if you measure the ideas, he's all is also very important because russia was um, before last 300 years, always. unfortunately, you get some kind of a cultural excuse of free uh, looking at the wise. yeah. and they don't get affected by the ideas that the good of actually be almost legal to it. and the, i think the, this is a peculiar moment, get a sense that russia is finally awake and, and i don't think that they will repeat the same pattern that started somewhere

with the reforms of peter degrades. and the russia is basically, i think, coming back to itself, well i in and out as stephen, i to add to that i agree with you. absolutely. the difference is rush is modernized itself. it's not it. and it disadvantages, like it was before, particularly as you brought up the cry, me in more, alexandra, i've lived here for 26 years and i studied the european in russian history in a graduate school. and, you know, i always looked at the, the victory day may, 9th is during the soviet union is a legitimizing factor for the communist party. they won the war and they should get the credit. fair enough i, i'm not going to take away from that, but i think now in the 21st century it we have already touched upon in this program . this is also so great a celebration of values, and i would say conservative values also go ahead. alexander. yes, um, i would agree with you sense of course,

the great picture of the board in russian historiography is um, connected with the defense of the model ends with the defense of russian solver entity and also of course with the defeat of fascism and definitely worse to defeat off of westland aggression against russia. and yeah, that for of course, it's not only an important day for russia, but for the most european countries. yeah, definitely. also because of mens the ends of fascist months. there may be also ordinary germans and austin. so suffert's from the consequences of the defeat of fascism. but i guess that's the wherever the feet of fascism itself is an important events. because unfortunately neither communist, smaller conservatives and all students in germany were actually able to topple the hitler regime manufacturers and by themselves. so they needed this help from the outside. otherwise we would maybe still, if under fastest rule,

and i guess therefore it's also an important day for europe itself. why do i mean it shouldn't be, but it's not okay. because, you know, you've been on this program many times, i mean i always appreciate it, but this is also a culture war. the west reason rejects russians culture and its attitudes and its value. so that's part of this proxy war against russia. vladimir. yeah, i mean is a, is there, is it, you know, we can order a witness as of recently, you know, the pro bowl by the war in ukraine. auto is a blue. see it's a performance is a can so authorize the form is a can. so in our, i suppose because even if it was like i remember was reading they, it's at the moment usually they wanted to teach a course on, on the say, yes, you that you, when they came up with the idea, maybe it's not this like what do you mean is not the time this is like, well caustic list. everybody benefits? you know, i did, you know, i told us they ask you about the semester students. this is do the,

as they open up the hippie, you know, we have one of the most popular courses in our department and the other day it is the best. it was wonderful story. you know, this is like universal list and it has to be any kind of nice and appreciate it. but i would also say that to us also have to appreciate, you know, a west and that is there's, you know, we should just diminish. i mean, piece of the great was, was a very wise guy and cut to global guy. he was by the garage of a c and use it to deal with the west to fly. the wednesday has to have more than the more than this one that so why don't we have to be very kind of creative in this not, not, you know, not slave usually repeats interesting patterns which priority do not walk in, you know, originally spoke to the different he states or the different culture, but to use them for a magically there's absolutely kind of nothing wrong with it. and i think i would say that, you know, with some smart west and this extra understanding. and i know all the, you know, the caller id or for example, sustainable agriculture. would it be actively developed by a russian, you know, scientists, and i know it gets caught up working. he was like very much, you know,

very much prayer do it. indeed in the know that and then on. and so i think the rest of the prism logic logic should be problematic. doing well, you know i, i will what we've run out of time. i just, i wish the westwood act on its words. you know, like, except diversity, they don't accept diversity, but it has a russian present characteristics with it. gentlemen, thank you very much. that's all the time we have one, i think may get some problems be in it. and in belgrade, and of course i want to thank our yours for watching us here at archie. so you next time, remember process the the the,

what is part of the, the employee would post that isn't the defense you of us entered in the word? or is it something deeper, more complex might be present good. let's stop without glitches. let's go products . as a 1941 with the nazis health relation, ultra nationalists. the u astonishes the claim, the independent state of croatia. shortly off, the seizing power. they build the scene of us concentration camp a place associated with the worst atrocities committed in yugoslavia during world war 2. use dash is used to come system to isolate and exterminate subs, roma, jews, and other non catholic minorities, and political opponents of the fascist regime. conditions in the san of us come

with her and the gods tortured to arise and the prisoners. they send them your constitution tense. so most of them died 6 was incredible genocide. the in the early 1880 brands decided to subjugate madagascar. however, the mother got the kingdom, refused to submit it $1883.00. during the 1st franco mail, i guess a wars the friend sent a punitive expedition to force admission on the island. the aggressor ships brutally bombarded the coastal settlements. the invaders manage to forcefully impose control over and madagascar is external affairs. but the french wanted more

of you years later, they started a full scale village area and phase and ended 18. 95 captured the capital tents and other evil, the commonest exiled queen, run of all on the 3rd, and our prime minister, rieney a letter of on a abroad. then the invaders began to clear the island from the malcontents, with iron and blood in 18. $96.00 france declared a protector at over mad, a gas start, and in $1897.00, annex the island. the suppression of the liberation movement erupted, merciless massacre. the capture of man, a gas car, led to tragic consequences. natural resources were in the hands of french corporations. all local schools were closed. and the french language was imposed on the population there last in 15 years and resulted in the death of at least 100000 mile. i guess the people, the colonial regime left an open wound in the history of man,

a gas car. but violence was never able to suppress the malagasy striving for freedom. the thousands of protesters gather in sweden to show their opposition to israel presents in the eurovision song competition, crying hypocrisy over the double standards over the ukraine. and because a conflict play a double. when it comes to the treatment for that reason, i think it's the progress easily. often we will like do the night before we houses down below. we'll start with depending on suspending arms deliveries to israel and letting you know how vows to fight on without american support of.